Ralph welcomes back Erica Payne, founder of Patriotic Millionaires, to update us on that group’s latest efforts to save American democracy by lobbying to raise wages for workers and tax the rich.
Wow! Such an eye opener. I never thought to compare the way people make their Money, nor have I realized that those different ways imply different rates of being taxed. Of course! But if you are an average worker, who’s ability to buy stocks or bonds or whatever other market means is curtailed by lack of income, you never even think about how other means of making money are taxed. It’s the worst of glass ceilings!
Thanks to your guest and the greatest of insights. It’s a revelation to me and I will be reading this book.
I have thought for some time that taxing unearned income (capital gains, etc.) at a lower rate than earned income was a dead giveaway as to who was running the show ..
Wow! Erica Payne is a fantastic woman. Great show. Thank you. To buttress what she said, here's a word from Noam Chomsky: "Concentrated wealth creates concentrated power, which legislates further concentration of wealth, which then concentrates more power in a vicious cycle."
“There's no consistency here,” exclaims Bruce Fein about the incompetence of Houston's own (groan) Al Green, and I’m saying the same thing in a different context pertaining to the segment with Erica Payne. The segment with Payne started out very well:
“How the left likes to look at taxes is how you get money to pay for stuff. And getting money to pay for stuff is the purpose of taxes on the state and local level. On the federal level, we approach taxes very differently. We say concentrated wealth is the threat to democracy.”
Excellent! That’s what I’ve been saying in the comments section here at the RNRH for months for years now. Unfortunately, this excellent start was entirely contradicted, however, by balderdash from Payne which is completely centered on federal taxation being a source of ‘revenue’ for the federal government to facilitate spending.
Payne may have convinced herself that they are approaching taxation from some kind of novel perspective, but the Patriotic Millionaires are entirely approaching taxation from a right-wing monetarist perspective, one which contradicts any end goal of restoring/maintaining democracy. Payne may have also convinced herself that her argument is clear, but the only thing that is clear are the contradictions in her statements. Her opening statement is one of an empirical approach to taxation and economics, but it ends up being the same Milton Friedman-esque theosophical belief system about the rôle of taxation, the national debt, and the general ability for the federal government to spend.
On a related topic, Payne’s approach to stabilizing the country through an increased minimum wage is short-sighted. I agree that it is important for workers to earn a livable wage, but Payne’s methods are not congruent with the nature of labor in current times. Maybe it would have been appropriate in the 1950s when labor was generally working normal wage-earning jobs, but such is not the case today in the ‘gig’ economy. Employers have learned how to circumvent labor laws and present it as something favorable for labor. With that, merely implementing an increased minimum wage is hardly sufficient to stabilize the national economy.
Instead, the focus should be on implementing a national job guarantee program where the federal government guarantees a job to anyone wanting one at a minimally livable wage with the intent that people in the job guarantee program will transfer into regular employment rather than stay in the JG program. This does many things. For one, it sets an unofficial minimum wage as most people will not work for less than what the JG program is offering. Second, this gives even the otherwise unemployed and underemployed a livable salary, something which would not happen with a regular minimum wage. Third, it maintains job skills and connections for the unemployed/underemployed. Further, it provides price stability as it provides a ‘buffer stock’ of employable labor, which increases national productivity, while also maintaining full employment which helps to stabilize demand.
Ultimately, the Patriotic Millionaires, and the population as a whole, have to confront the reality that in order to fight the oligopoly confronting the nation, the citizenry must transition from the aforementioned theosophical macroeconomic belief system and adopt an empirical one. From that, economic policies can be implemented which favor the entire population, not just small pockets of the population while a large number of other citizens are put in a disadvantaged position. However, that goal will not be achieved until the public is in position to advocate for informed economic position. We’re not in that position right now and the policies being advocated by the Patriotic Millionaires are entirely faith-based positions which I will not support. The Patriotic Millionaires have something to start with given that informed opening statement, but the Patriotic Millionaires still have a lot of homework left to complete.
The best way to tax the rich and save Social Security is to raise the estate tax and eliminate the tax loopholes that led Gary Cohn to say "Only morons pay the estate tax." In 2001, my mother's estate was one of the 2.2% of estates that paid an estate tax. In 2023, less than 0.1% of estates paid an estate tax. Trump and the Republicans now intend to use reconciliation to repeal the estate tax.
Ms Payne’s comments reminded me of an article written by Dorothy Brown back in 2009, Two Tax Codes, Two Americas. Both are an eye opener for the lay person.
I hope she and Bruce Fein prevail but I don’t have much faith in the dems these days with respect to supporting their efforts, especially since very few are calling for a General Strike US.
Our resistance is feckless unlike in France where they shut down attempts to curtail rights and cut benefits in a heartbeat. Trump and his MAGA cult are running roughshod over us while Dems are patting themselves on the back. It’s pathetic to watch.
Perhaps Ralph could shed some light on the General Strike US movement supported by both Prof Richard Wolff and even Rep Jim McGovern.
Ralph - "So why is the State rebating billions of dollars every year since 1981 collected from the sale of securities back to wealthy brokerage firms rather than applying those taxes to programs that promote social well-being for everyone?”
So the tax itself does not need to be re-instated, only its proceeds moved to a different fund ...
This may seem a minor correction - but, it seems to me, an important one - theoretically a lot easier to simply move the money out of the current rebate fund than to re-instate the tax - the money was put into a fund to help NYC emerge from bankruptcy in the ?70's, then moved to the current fund in ?'81 and has been taking in, and rebating, billions of $$$ every year .... given the advent of computer assisted HFT, not to mention all the stock buybacks that are increasing, lots of money to be had ....
Impeachment. I think it's too late to oppose him now. The resistance should have started last year, months before the election, even after Project 2025 was released. It was too late after the November 5, 2024, elections. That's why Joe Biden issued those pardons before leaving office. Both the Democrats and Republicans are afraid of the consequences they might face if they oppose the Trump regime. Project 2025 is progressing without interruption. The Trump regime has implemented DODGE. It's not to target waste in the federal government; rather, it's designed to create a Surveillance State similar to that of China. Just imagine what they can do with Artificial Intelligence by merging all of our data from various federal agencies. What I want to know is, what can we do if they restrict access to government benefits or, even worse, place us in Social Security's death master file?
Thousands, and more thousands, and more thousands of us in the Streets and flooding our Congress people. Insist. Insist. Insist. If you are indolent, you know what will happen.
I mentioned something similar on someone’s Substack, and in response, he said: “Well you’ve got private pursuits to keep you busy I’m sure. Oh well. So it goes.” I will share exactly what I said to him:
If I had told you back in 2016 that Trump was going to become a dictator, what would you have said? I told a co-worker that Hillary Clinton would win the election in a landslide. That co-worker was so confident in Trump’s victory that he offered to bet me a steak dinner. While I’m not a betting person, I felt so sure that people would recognize what I saw—that Clinton would win convincingly—that I accepted the bet.
When I returned to work after the election, all my co-workers who had voted for Trump said, "Give him a chance." What would you have said to me back then?
I sensed a feeling of darkness after he won. I experienced a similar feeling when I first read about Germany in the 1930s and when I watched the British documentary series "The World at War," which chronicles the events of the Second World War.
Project 2025 was developed by individuals closely tied to the Christian Nationalist faction of the Republican Party. What they crafted in Project 2025 is very well thought-out.
The Trump administration is evolving into an authoritarian regime modeled after Hungary. Viktor Orban, Hungary’s autocratic leader, came to the Heritage Foundation to collaborate with them on crafting a plan to keep Trump—or a Christian Nationalist—in power. That’s why I believe it’s too late.
Excellent show, full of helpful information. There is so much to focus on and attempt to do something about, that this offers a very helpful, couple of paths. Thank you!
I Think it's about time we go across the border and recruit Mark Carney to run our government. He actually has a plan to make Canada great ,,the Donald seems to be trying real hard to Tariff all our once working partners out of existence. And it looks like he is going to succeed in doing all those deals to make it happen.
,It's time to go international and stop all this he's better then she bullshit to . The world needs to work together to make real important decisions and progress to improve the living conditions for all those living on the planet earth , no needt to go to Mars unless of course we don't take care of our home .
Think international,, who would you recruit to run the world ,?
Don't count out one of those kids that we tried to stop coming across Trump's border wall ,,,or some poor starving Gasa kid ,, caught up in that Israeli feasco or maybe a poor South african kid left behind because of that conflict . I bet there's some hard working stiff sitting at his apartment kitchen table in Moscow that could do a better job than trump . Any takers?
“I Think it's about time we go across the border and recruit Mark Carney to run our government.”
Quoi?
Why is Mark Carney being held as some kind of example of competent leadership?
Carney is an unapologetic supporter of the same corporatism/neoliberalism as the likes of Reagan, the Bushes, Clintons, Obama, Thatcher, Blair, Starmer, Hawke, Keating, Mitterrand, and the Trudeaus. In fact, Carney is even more right-wing economically than Justin Trudeau and holds the same failed foreign policy as pretty much every other relatively recent US administration. Carney is a member of the Liberal Party. The name comes not from social policy purposes, but because the Liberal Party is an economically liberal (free market) party, much like their big ‘rivals’, the Conservative Party.
Saying that Carney is some kind of solution for Canada, much less the US, is essentially the same as saying that our national nightmare would not exist if only Joe Biden or Kamala Harris were president when, in reality, the likes of Biden and Harris are why Trump is so easily able to grab power.
With Carney, Canada will not solve their housing crisis, a crisis which has driven younger voters to the Conservative Party. With Carney, Canada will not solve their ever-increasing privatization and other diminished aspects of their health care policy. With Carney, Canada will not solve their labor policy problems.
What we do see with Carney is that the Canadian public is so desperate for economic leadership that they are swayed by Carney’s economic credentials. Unfortunately, the Canadians are so ignorant on macroeconomic issues that they cannot see that Carney’s economic policy is exactly the same as the previous politicians who have failed them. Canadians are hardly alone in that ignorance and magical thinking about economic policies. We have the same problem here in the US and Europe has the same problems as well.
Perhaps the problem here is with the public. Perhaps the public should be demanding solid, empirically-based economic policy, and being educated enough to know how to formulate empirically-based economic policy, rather than being reduced to prayerful hoping based on pure religious faith that a central banker (Carney) or businessman (Trump) will provide beneficial economic policy for the entire population when it should be clear that these candidates are actively pushing policies which will harm the economic position of the majority of the population.
Now, if you want bits and pieces of good leadership, there are examples of it both domestically and internationally. Internationally, Japan has a better understanding of the benefits of deficit spending with a near-0% interest rate policy. Domestically, even if the policies weren’t perfect, both Trump and Biden understood how to allow the country to survive the Covid crisis through increased social programs via deficit spending, but those lessons were largely abandoned as Covid became less of a focus for government. Why did we let our economic policy regress and return to the ideology of Mark Carney?
Wow! Such an eye opener. I never thought to compare the way people make their Money, nor have I realized that those different ways imply different rates of being taxed. Of course! But if you are an average worker, who’s ability to buy stocks or bonds or whatever other market means is curtailed by lack of income, you never even think about how other means of making money are taxed. It’s the worst of glass ceilings!
Thanks to your guest and the greatest of insights. It’s a revelation to me and I will be reading this book.
I have thought for some time that taxing unearned income (capital gains, etc.) at a lower rate than earned income was a dead giveaway as to who was running the show ..
Erica Payne for President!
Wow! Erica Payne is a fantastic woman. Great show. Thank you. To buttress what she said, here's a word from Noam Chomsky: "Concentrated wealth creates concentrated power, which legislates further concentration of wealth, which then concentrates more power in a vicious cycle."
Thank you . Great Panel . Learned a great deal of important information, always time well spent here at the Ralph Nader Radio Hour .
Ms. Erica Payne, in answer to your question, Mr. Ralph Nadar is a multimillionaire and STILL a fabulous dude.
“There's no consistency here,” exclaims Bruce Fein about the incompetence of Houston's own (groan) Al Green, and I’m saying the same thing in a different context pertaining to the segment with Erica Payne. The segment with Payne started out very well:
“How the left likes to look at taxes is how you get money to pay for stuff. And getting money to pay for stuff is the purpose of taxes on the state and local level. On the federal level, we approach taxes very differently. We say concentrated wealth is the threat to democracy.”
Excellent! That’s what I’ve been saying in the comments section here at the RNRH for months for years now. Unfortunately, this excellent start was entirely contradicted, however, by balderdash from Payne which is completely centered on federal taxation being a source of ‘revenue’ for the federal government to facilitate spending.
Payne may have convinced herself that they are approaching taxation from some kind of novel perspective, but the Patriotic Millionaires are entirely approaching taxation from a right-wing monetarist perspective, one which contradicts any end goal of restoring/maintaining democracy. Payne may have also convinced herself that her argument is clear, but the only thing that is clear are the contradictions in her statements. Her opening statement is one of an empirical approach to taxation and economics, but it ends up being the same Milton Friedman-esque theosophical belief system about the rôle of taxation, the national debt, and the general ability for the federal government to spend.
On a related topic, Payne’s approach to stabilizing the country through an increased minimum wage is short-sighted. I agree that it is important for workers to earn a livable wage, but Payne’s methods are not congruent with the nature of labor in current times. Maybe it would have been appropriate in the 1950s when labor was generally working normal wage-earning jobs, but such is not the case today in the ‘gig’ economy. Employers have learned how to circumvent labor laws and present it as something favorable for labor. With that, merely implementing an increased minimum wage is hardly sufficient to stabilize the national economy.
Instead, the focus should be on implementing a national job guarantee program where the federal government guarantees a job to anyone wanting one at a minimally livable wage with the intent that people in the job guarantee program will transfer into regular employment rather than stay in the JG program. This does many things. For one, it sets an unofficial minimum wage as most people will not work for less than what the JG program is offering. Second, this gives even the otherwise unemployed and underemployed a livable salary, something which would not happen with a regular minimum wage. Third, it maintains job skills and connections for the unemployed/underemployed. Further, it provides price stability as it provides a ‘buffer stock’ of employable labor, which increases national productivity, while also maintaining full employment which helps to stabilize demand.
Ultimately, the Patriotic Millionaires, and the population as a whole, have to confront the reality that in order to fight the oligopoly confronting the nation, the citizenry must transition from the aforementioned theosophical macroeconomic belief system and adopt an empirical one. From that, economic policies can be implemented which favor the entire population, not just small pockets of the population while a large number of other citizens are put in a disadvantaged position. However, that goal will not be achieved until the public is in position to advocate for informed economic position. We’re not in that position right now and the policies being advocated by the Patriotic Millionaires are entirely faith-based positions which I will not support. The Patriotic Millionaires have something to start with given that informed opening statement, but the Patriotic Millionaires still have a lot of homework left to complete.
The best way to tax the rich and save Social Security is to raise the estate tax and eliminate the tax loopholes that led Gary Cohn to say "Only morons pay the estate tax." In 2001, my mother's estate was one of the 2.2% of estates that paid an estate tax. In 2023, less than 0.1% of estates paid an estate tax. Trump and the Republicans now intend to use reconciliation to repeal the estate tax.
Ms Payne’s comments reminded me of an article written by Dorothy Brown back in 2009, Two Tax Codes, Two Americas. Both are an eye opener for the lay person.
I hope she and Bruce Fein prevail but I don’t have much faith in the dems these days with respect to supporting their efforts, especially since very few are calling for a General Strike US.
Our resistance is feckless unlike in France where they shut down attempts to curtail rights and cut benefits in a heartbeat. Trump and his MAGA cult are running roughshod over us while Dems are patting themselves on the back. It’s pathetic to watch.
Perhaps Ralph could shed some light on the General Strike US movement supported by both Prof Richard Wolff and even Rep Jim McGovern.
www.generalstrikeus.com
Wow! Terrific, smart, powerful, clear, passionate woman! Please invite her back again. Learned a lot from her...
There is no American democracy to preserve.
I looked around Bruce Fein's website and substack and couldn't find any link to the articles of impeachment
The Capitol Hill Citizen published them
Great show! But I would like to make a bit of correction about the NY Stock Transfer Tax
That tax was never repealed, it is still in effect
https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/stock/stktridx.htm
The proceeds are currently parked in a fund the sole purpose of which is to rebate the money to the brokers and traders who pay it
https://newyork.public.law/laws/n.y._tax_law_section_280-a
https://www.nysenate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2025/james-sanders-jr/lawmakers-rally-nyse-reinstate-stock-transfer-tax
Ralph - "So why is the State rebating billions of dollars every year since 1981 collected from the sale of securities back to wealthy brokerage firms rather than applying those taxes to programs that promote social well-being for everyone?”
So the tax itself does not need to be re-instated, only its proceeds moved to a different fund ...
This may seem a minor correction - but, it seems to me, an important one - theoretically a lot easier to simply move the money out of the current rebate fund than to re-instate the tax - the money was put into a fund to help NYC emerge from bankruptcy in the ?70's, then moved to the current fund in ?'81 and has been taking in, and rebating, billions of $$$ every year .... given the advent of computer assisted HFT, not to mention all the stock buybacks that are increasing, lots of money to be had ....
Impeachment. I think it's too late to oppose him now. The resistance should have started last year, months before the election, even after Project 2025 was released. It was too late after the November 5, 2024, elections. That's why Joe Biden issued those pardons before leaving office. Both the Democrats and Republicans are afraid of the consequences they might face if they oppose the Trump regime. Project 2025 is progressing without interruption. The Trump regime has implemented DODGE. It's not to target waste in the federal government; rather, it's designed to create a Surveillance State similar to that of China. Just imagine what they can do with Artificial Intelligence by merging all of our data from various federal agencies. What I want to know is, what can we do if they restrict access to government benefits or, even worse, place us in Social Security's death master file?
Thousands, and more thousands, and more thousands of us in the Streets and flooding our Congress people. Insist. Insist. Insist. If you are indolent, you know what will happen.
I mentioned something similar on someone’s Substack, and in response, he said: “Well you’ve got private pursuits to keep you busy I’m sure. Oh well. So it goes.” I will share exactly what I said to him:
If I had told you back in 2016 that Trump was going to become a dictator, what would you have said? I told a co-worker that Hillary Clinton would win the election in a landslide. That co-worker was so confident in Trump’s victory that he offered to bet me a steak dinner. While I’m not a betting person, I felt so sure that people would recognize what I saw—that Clinton would win convincingly—that I accepted the bet.
When I returned to work after the election, all my co-workers who had voted for Trump said, "Give him a chance." What would you have said to me back then?
I sensed a feeling of darkness after he won. I experienced a similar feeling when I first read about Germany in the 1930s and when I watched the British documentary series "The World at War," which chronicles the events of the Second World War.
Project 2025 was developed by individuals closely tied to the Christian Nationalist faction of the Republican Party. What they crafted in Project 2025 is very well thought-out.
The Trump administration is evolving into an authoritarian regime modeled after Hungary. Viktor Orban, Hungary’s autocratic leader, came to the Heritage Foundation to collaborate with them on crafting a plan to keep Trump—or a Christian Nationalist—in power. That’s why I believe it’s too late.
Excellent show, full of helpful information. There is so much to focus on and attempt to do something about, that this offers a very helpful, couple of paths. Thank you!
I Think it's about time we go across the border and recruit Mark Carney to run our government. He actually has a plan to make Canada great ,,the Donald seems to be trying real hard to Tariff all our once working partners out of existence. And it looks like he is going to succeed in doing all those deals to make it happen.
,It's time to go international and stop all this he's better then she bullshit to . The world needs to work together to make real important decisions and progress to improve the living conditions for all those living on the planet earth , no needt to go to Mars unless of course we don't take care of our home .
Think international,, who would you recruit to run the world ,?
Don't count out one of those kids that we tried to stop coming across Trump's border wall ,,,or some poor starving Gasa kid ,, caught up in that Israeli feasco or maybe a poor South african kid left behind because of that conflict . I bet there's some hard working stiff sitting at his apartment kitchen table in Moscow that could do a better job than trump . Any takers?
Time will tell if we got the time ? .
Good luck America have a great day my friends.
“I Think it's about time we go across the border and recruit Mark Carney to run our government.”
Quoi?
Why is Mark Carney being held as some kind of example of competent leadership?
Carney is an unapologetic supporter of the same corporatism/neoliberalism as the likes of Reagan, the Bushes, Clintons, Obama, Thatcher, Blair, Starmer, Hawke, Keating, Mitterrand, and the Trudeaus. In fact, Carney is even more right-wing economically than Justin Trudeau and holds the same failed foreign policy as pretty much every other relatively recent US administration. Carney is a member of the Liberal Party. The name comes not from social policy purposes, but because the Liberal Party is an economically liberal (free market) party, much like their big ‘rivals’, the Conservative Party.
Saying that Carney is some kind of solution for Canada, much less the US, is essentially the same as saying that our national nightmare would not exist if only Joe Biden or Kamala Harris were president when, in reality, the likes of Biden and Harris are why Trump is so easily able to grab power.
With Carney, Canada will not solve their housing crisis, a crisis which has driven younger voters to the Conservative Party. With Carney, Canada will not solve their ever-increasing privatization and other diminished aspects of their health care policy. With Carney, Canada will not solve their labor policy problems.
What we do see with Carney is that the Canadian public is so desperate for economic leadership that they are swayed by Carney’s economic credentials. Unfortunately, the Canadians are so ignorant on macroeconomic issues that they cannot see that Carney’s economic policy is exactly the same as the previous politicians who have failed them. Canadians are hardly alone in that ignorance and magical thinking about economic policies. We have the same problem here in the US and Europe has the same problems as well.
Perhaps the problem here is with the public. Perhaps the public should be demanding solid, empirically-based economic policy, and being educated enough to know how to formulate empirically-based economic policy, rather than being reduced to prayerful hoping based on pure religious faith that a central banker (Carney) or businessman (Trump) will provide beneficial economic policy for the entire population when it should be clear that these candidates are actively pushing policies which will harm the economic position of the majority of the population.
Now, if you want bits and pieces of good leadership, there are examples of it both domestically and internationally. Internationally, Japan has a better understanding of the benefits of deficit spending with a near-0% interest rate policy. Domestically, even if the policies weren’t perfect, both Trump and Biden understood how to allow the country to survive the Covid crisis through increased social programs via deficit spending, but those lessons were largely abandoned as Covid became less of a focus for government. Why did we let our economic policy regress and return to the ideology of Mark Carney?
Cheryl 🔝 Nailed It! Thank You Ralph, and your team👏🏅🥰